Why do so Many People Say the FR-S/BRZ Needs More Power?

"WhatDaFunk" (WhatDaFunk) 03/09/2014 at 15:07 • Filed to: None

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Almost as common as articles on the Toyabaru FR-SGT86BRZ, are people complaining about how the Toyobaru doesn't have enough power. In contrast to this we have the Fiat 500 Abarth and Fiesta ST: similarly spec'd cars that also receive positive critical response and often come up in conversations among enthusiasts, yet they get a pass from the more power brigade, why is that?

First let's look a the specs:

The Abarth is a bit down on power, but in the same ballpark, and the Fiesta ST is within spitting distance of the Toyabaru, yet both of these cars are fine while the Toyabaru is underpowered? I think this is a result of perception of what the cars are and expectations of what they should do.

The Abarth and Fiesta ST are built on economy car platforms. Yes they have aero kits, loud exhausts and a lower ride height, but you can still see the economy car underneath. Their humble origins set the bar lower, so when they turn out to be raucous fun it's a pleasant surprise. They're feisty underdogs punching above their weight, and who doesn't like that?

The Toyobaru on the other hand looks like a purpose built sports car (which it is), it looks like it should be fast, powerful and expensive (which it isn't). It's a low slung sporty coupe with back seats of questionable utility. It looks like something from a Fast and Furious movie (just without the ridiculous wing and slathering of vinyl stickers) and because of this it attracts the attention of people who get hung up on horsepower figures.

Compounding this is the hype surrounding the Toyabaru and its release. It was getting to the point where it seemed like the Toyobaru was the second coming of Jesus in car form, here to rapture all the devout enthusiasts into automotive heaven. When there's this much hype around a car, it's bound to disappoint some people once they finally get their hands on it, and there's gonna be people who are gunning to take it down just because of the ubiquity of its media coverage.

There's another sporty little coupe out there that seems to escape the wrath of the more power brigade:

The Mazda MX-5 Miata: base price $23,720, 167 hp @ 7,000 rpm, 0-60 in 7.1s. Similar specs to the Toyobaru, comes up all the time and receives a lot of critical affection, yet it seems to be just fine on power. Again, it comes to perception: the Miata is a small roadster built in the British tradition, which is more about pure driving enjoyment than hardcore performance figures or lap times. Coupled with its (undeserved) reputation as a "hairdressers" car it doesn't draw the attention and criticism of the more power brigade so it gets a pass.

For the record, I think the Toyobaru is just fine and the complaints of it being underpowered are undeserved. Let's enjoy it for what it is and be glad that there's another sporty, RWD coupe available for a reasonable price.

Brian Silvestro > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:09

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I'm pretty sure the Fiesta ST has around 237 lb/ft of torque. A lot more than the BRZ.

Decay buys too many beaters > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:11

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Because many people who bought 86s came from the Subaru crowd, and they are used to turbocharged engines. You do not exactly find WRX guys cross shopping Fiats Fiestas or Miatas

I'm with you I love mine and don't find it to be under powered at all

Victorious Secret > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:15

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Because the actual competition comes from the WRX, ST and MS3.

Not the smaller ones.

Because Subaru and Toyota hailed this as the second coming of Jesus but it isn't. They hailed this as sports cars redefined but it isn't. Its just another Miata with slightly bigger back seats. Thats it. End of story. Game over. Moving on.

So when you're already paying what you have to pay on a FRS/BRZ, why not ask for more? The V6 Mustang (yes, tired comparison) is no slouch in handling or power for the same price. The Focus ST while not being RWD is just as capable of a track car and daily use car.

They didn't reinvent the wheel here. They didn't even polish it up with carbon fibre. Its a half assed measure to not give it 50 more hp and call it day. Thats all everyone really wants. Just a little more. Make it worth it. Otherwise whats the point?

Victorious Secret > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 15:16

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Almost 100 more torques to be not so precise.

That is not a insignificant amount, because in daily use torque is what matters a hell of a lot more than HP.

Brian Silvestro > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 15:17

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That's why I'd much rather have an ST over an FRS/BRZ.

feather-throttle-not-hair > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:24

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Never driven one, but i'm guessing because the chassis probably feels like it could handle a lot more without losing what makes it special.

I think it's easier to take a car out of it's "sweet spot" so to speak if that car is FWD, as introducing more power can also add understeer and torque steer.

The MX-5 on the other hand has a shorter wheelbase and might be more prone to twitchiness at higher speeds. What's fun with 160hp becomes scary with 250, without serious attention paid to chassis and suspension.

From what i've heard, the BRZ and FRS are a new set of tires away from being able to handle another 50 or 60 hp.

That's just speculation though.

Victorious Secret > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 15:25

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I'd rather have one because I'm a hatchback whore and 3/4 cars have been hatchbacks.

I actually put my money where my mouth is and do my part to tell automakers to keep making them.

BeaterGT > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:28

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To be fair, I don't think any of these cars have enough power.

DylanToback > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:28

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I think the difference in torque between specifically the Fiesta and the BRZ is substantial. Having driven both cars, the 0-60 times have little to do with how these cars feel when accelerating. The Fiesta has no real turbo lag to speak of, and pulls relatively hard from any point in the rev range. The BRZ on the other hand has nowhere near the same sense of urgency.

I also believe this phenomenon is, at least in part, due to the competency of the BRZ's chassis. As has been pointed out by nearly every auto journalist, the BRZ is perfectly able to handle more power. The Fiesta however, as the author of this post mentioned, is based on a small, front-wheel-drive economy car. Realistically, the Fiesta would not be able to effectively use much more power than it had when leaving the factory, while the BRZ could easily make do with another fifty or so horsepower and a large helping of torque. The end result of this is the Fiesta feels like a car that is as good as it can be, while the BRZ comes across as a car with a lot of untapped potential.

dogisbadob > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:29

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Because you can't get a sunroof on the FRS/BRZ

Brian Silvestro > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 15:29

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Yet they still give us less than Europe gets...

Victorious Secret > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 15:30

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Because the internet is filled with poor, broke ass 12 year olds who claim they can buy the world but in reality couldn't buy a pack of gum if their lives depended on it.

Small wonder that product planning guys laugh at internet advice.

Brian Silvestro > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 15:32

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And people get angry when they don't listen to the internet.

Victorious Secret > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 15:34

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They shouldn't.

If the internet had their way we'd still be driving Pintos.

Mikeado > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:34

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What it actually needs is more mid-range torque. Not so much that you don't want to rev it out anymore, but apparently it feels a bit weedy unless you're above like 5k or something.

Victorious Secret > DylanToback 03/09/2014 at 15:36

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That all makes sense, which begs the question why we don't have a hi-po version of the twins yet.

Its not like it wouldn't sell. Its not like Hyundai has trouble getting people to pay for more powerful Genii or Ford with their Mustang GT. So why all the excuses from Toyota/Subaru?

Brian Silvestro > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 15:38

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True, but I'd 100% buy a new Twingo if they brought it here. I'd put my money where my mouth is in that case.

Gimmi-Sagan-Om-Draken > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 15:39

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Perhaps they will make a TRD or something to up it

Brian Silvestro > Gimmi-Sagan-Om-Draken 03/09/2014 at 15:40

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We can only hope.

awe46m3zcp > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:42

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To me the difference is FWD vs RWD. The 2 hatchbacks are just peppy little economy cars that are fun for daily driving. The FRS was supposed to be a inexpensive sports car, its 50-100hp away from being a real trackday toy.

DylanToback > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 15:42

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I agree completely, it's baffling. I fully understand the reasoning for releasing a base model first, and then following up a couple years later with a higher powered model. The twins would be perfect candidates for such an approach.

Gimmi-Sagan-Om-Draken > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 15:43

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Word has come from Australian site Drive that chief FR-S designer, Tetsuya Tada, admitted a power output increase could happen as soon as a mid-model refresh in 2015. ”I hope to make an engine upgrade at least one time with this car,” Tada said in a Drive interview.

Brian Silvestro > Gimmi-Sagan-Om-Draken 03/09/2014 at 15:44

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Ok, good. It can only be a good thing to increase the power.

Forgetful > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 15:46

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Let'em bitch. Just a bunch of internet blow hards anyways.

They gave us a great platform. The chassis and engine can handle a lot more than stock. If you want the power just bolt it on and tune it up. Jalops should be hot rodders, not car designers.

I hope they never give it more power and that their reputation as a slow car grows so that when I supercharge mine I'll have a sweet little surprise for anyone who assumes it's just a pokey little FR-S.

oldirtybootz > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 15:53

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Amen to that, it's adorable and it's an ass-engined French conpact. I don't even particularly like Renault but I'd definitely consider a Twingo if sold here.

Forgetful > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 16:07

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I test drove a FocuST for a whole day before pulling the trigger on the FR-S the very next afternoon.

While it's more powerful, it's still a Focus. Same for the rest of its competition, they're all upgrades over a plain car, except for the Mustang. I briefly glanced at the new V6 Bustank, but they're as common as Camrys around here, and they're mostly driven by independent middle aged women.

oldirtybootz > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 16:16

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Because the Toyobaru, just like my Dart, has driveability issues because of it's lack of power(or torque in its case). The high curb weight, lack of low end power, considerable turbo lag, and a long throw to second gear make my car something of a chore to drive on busier roads. I genuinely prefer to stick to back roads anyway so it's not a huge deal, but I can't deny that my car is slow as fuck. While I haven't driven one, I understand that the same 1.4L turbo is a different animal in the 500 Abarth due to the car's lighter weight. If the Dart weren't a fat pig, the engine would be plenty. My old 2010 Focus with a 1.4T would be a blast because it weighs 600lbs less than the Dart.

The Toyobaru suffers from similar problems. Weight obviously isn't it's issue, but lack of low end power is.

151 lb-ft @ 6600 rpm

Let that sink in. For comparison, my tiny little 1.4L makes 184 lb-ft @ 2500 rpm. The Toyobaru is 500lbs lighter than my car but I'm making 30 lb-ft more 4000rpm sooner. In both cases, you have to rev the balls off these cars to get them moving.

So while 0-60 times of 6.2s and 8s for the Toyobaru and Dart respectively may look...er, respectable, the manner in which those times are attained isn't exactly effortless. Sure, running a car to near redline can be fun, but having to shift at 5k into second from every light just to keep ahead of traffic is tedious.

For two incredibly hyped cars, it's just a bit disapointing. Fortunately, if you can live with that both cars make up for it in other aspects.

YSI-what can brown do for you > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 16:21

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Because people love to complain. Although, it isn't very torquey, but when you are booking it, it is plenty fast!

Shiftright > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 16:24

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Hmm, ALL US tests of the Abarth show it to hit 60 in about a second less than on that chart. That number is probably for the base European Abarth or the US Fiat 500 Turbo. But I agree, it doesn't need more power, although more would always be nice.

Forgetful > feather-throttle-not-hair 03/09/2014 at 16:24

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Forgetful > YSI-what can brown do for you 03/09/2014 at 16:29

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How much can you expect to gain from a full exhaust and good tune?

Gatsby's Ghost > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 16:32

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I agree—the Toyobaru's torque is a deeply unimpressive figure, though I have to say that in real-world use (even in Colorado, i.e., at altitude) it seems more than adequate to my butt-dyno.

Another issue with the FR-S/BRZ's 200 horsepower figure is that those are brake-horsepower. At the wheels, it's making more like 170, which is somewhat less impressive. The Fiesta ST is pretty definitely clearing its claimed 197bhp figure at the wheels, which is another reason it's a more attractive package when you look just beyond the numbers: the Fiesta has a better wheel -horsepower-per-ton ratio.

Superveloce > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 16:32

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Anon > oldirtybootz 03/09/2014 at 16:34

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If you think that's slow, my Mini makes 120 hp and 110 ft/lbs of torque in a 2700 pound car. Stop lights are my worst enemy!

RazoE > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 16:37

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Simple. The fiesta st and abarth are tarted up versions of "regular" cars. The fr-s/brz only has one model. Also don't forget Mazda made a turbo Miata to address power issues.

So yes, the fr-s/brz needs more power.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 16:42

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You do, you just have to make it yourself. Turbo kit + wider wheels +car+ tune (plus 150 bucks and license )= about 35 grand. That will give you a close to 400hp. Result is. . .

Not feeling 400whp courageous? There are 300hp superchargers for cheaper, if you feel like keeping reliability. People already have 30k+ miles on these kits.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Forgetful 03/09/2014 at 16:46

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I am not sure really. From what I have seen, about 20 to 30hp in the dip, and 10 to 20ish up top. Here is one with just the headers and a tune.

Jayhawk Jake > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 16:53

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200 hp to front wheels = crazy fun

200 hp to rear wheels = meh.

But seriously, people need something to complain about. It's just human nature, and the only complaint people can find for them is the power. For the abarth it's useability and seating position, the fiesta is too small or ugly.

Show me a car under $50,000 MSRP that reviewers/people can't find something to complain about, and you'll have your answer

wiffleballtony > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 17:02

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When a FWD Fiesta is faster around a track than a RWD sports car it needs more power. In this case torque. However considering it already overwhelmed the tires it ships with, you'd have to change those, possibly even wider wheels before you can even consider adding power. Doing that ruins the dynamics, and puts the price into more competent cars.

offroadkarter > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 17:04

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oh my God, the toyobaru is slower than a fiesta!

That should have summed up the entire article as to why it needs more power!

You're comparing two small "city cars" to a sports coupe, its an apples to orange comparison.

Stradale > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 17:50

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FWD vs. RWD. Also, turbocharged torque motors vs N/A.

Beeblebrox237 > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 17:53

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My dad just bought an FRS and says it has more than enough power for him.

DetroitMuscle > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 17:53

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Because everything needs more power.This is no exception.

sie0174 > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 17:53

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This is going to sound weird, but I think it has to do with the shape of the car. It looks like a Sports Car, not a Hot Hatch. And if it looks like a sports car, people are going to compare it to the Mustang and Genesis Coupe, even if it is much smaller.

caddyak > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 17:54

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Who really wants more than 200 HP in a tall, FWD economy car? Just more torque steer to fight with an uncompliant chassis.

Who really wants more horsepower in a RWD, purpose built sports coupe with a low roofline and stiff chassis?

Everyone ever everywhere

shirosake > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 17:58

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After having driven both a LOT (and both on the track at Miller motorsports park) I can say I would rather have a BRZ. The Fiesta ST is a FANTASTIC little car. Really fantastic, but the BRZ seems to have much more character and just feels better.

Car > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 17:59

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Because of torque... Do I really have to explain this?

shirosake > Decay buys too many beaters 03/09/2014 at 18:00

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Thats a great point - the BRZ isnt EVER cross shopped with Fiat's or Fiestas. Its shopped with Focus ST's, WRX's and the like.

grahamrh808 > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:00

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The most frustrating part for me is that you just KNOW Subaru has plenty of turbocharged flat four engines already being sold around the world in other cars....

...So why won't they put the engines the already have in this car! PLEASE!!!

RedRoab > DylanToback 03/09/2014 at 18:00

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So you're sensitive down to 3% in detecting differences in 0-60 times by feel? I'm impressed!

I'm not saying that the twins couldn't use more power, but I did find your comparison between the two a little rich.

zzoldan > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:01

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Don't forget the ST and Abarth are turbocharged, while the Toyobaru twins are NA. The power delivery in the ST/Abarth feels more lively and therefore makes them more fun.

GTI MkVII > YSI-what can brown do for you 03/09/2014 at 18:01

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In all honesty, a lot of people (myself included) simply don't have the time, budget, or freedom to go that route. When it comes down to it, I want reliable, fun, decently powerful transportation with a solid factory warranty. And it should to roll off the assembly line exactly how I want it from the get go.

TGRIP > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:02

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TGRIP > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:03

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Cause

GTI MkVII > Anon 03/09/2014 at 18:03

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Ouch. Makes me almost grateful for my 106 hp/103 ft lb. Civic weighing in at 2350 lbs.

RedRoab > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:05

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I think that people complain about the power so much because it's the twins' biggest flaw, and it's easy to complain about a lack of power.

Goofnik > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:05

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Very simple. The average driver doesn't take corners at speed.

Moreover, the average enthusiast doesn't take corners at speed . Yes, I'm serious. They stab the pedal in a straight line, and maybe take corners 10-15mph faster than normal. Since the FR-S/BRZ is only a bit quick in a straight line, and can't pull noticeable longitudinal Gs, people claim it's underpowered.

Too many times have I gone in a ride in someone's M3, Corvette, or 911, and been bored to tears, aside from 0.6-0.7 longitudinal Gs in 1st and 2nd gear. We swap, and go for a ride in my '08 Mazda MX-5, and they experience lateral G forces they didn't think were possible. I've had people think the MX-5 was going to flip over. These people also didn't realize you can do a helluva burnout in a bone stock MX-5 (with Pilot SuperSports and very minor alignment tweaks), and well as drift them pretty handily (just need to compensate for the Miata-two-step).

Moreover, I'm doing this at low speeds. I am terrifying people in a Miata at 30-40mph. I've driven the BRZ, and it breaks away pretty handily at 25mph with a good flick. That's legal speeds in a residential neighborhood. You can genuinely have fun everywhere in those things because of the tires shod on them. Even at 25mph, most people would think they're going to die.

However if you tell post people this, they respond as to why their Accord V6 is better than my MX-5, because it's so much faster in a straight line (this is true). Then they go for a ride along and they learn, very quickly, why they're wrong.

I'm about to get a Porsche Cayman GTS. It'll be impossible to showboat in that car without people assuming they're going to die. Though it gets all the family car, muscle car, and a fair number of sports car numbers off my back about their car being faster in a straight line.

steve_snj > dogisbadob 03/09/2014 at 18:05

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Proper sports cars don't need sunroofs

86it > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:07

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It's because the FRS costs almost $25k to start, the ST only is around $22k. $3 grand should give your a little bit more bang.

Rü$ > Brian Silvestro 03/09/2014 at 18:07

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But the only thing with the fiesta is that it's not Right Wheel Drive. Allow me to break it all down to you with this schematic.

Brian Silvestro > Rü$ 03/09/2014 at 18:08

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I'm aware, but thank you.

AdmiralAkbar > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:09

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The FRS has way more power than I expected it to have, considering that's it's the revival of a car that originally had 112Hp and 97LbFt of torque. I'd rather complain about how it doesn't have usable back seats or a hatch back.

DarthDuster > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 18:09

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I read somewhere reputable (possibly TTAC) that there isn't much headroom in the current engine for getting more out of it without resorting to artificial aspiration.

That brings with it a whole tonne of issues for Toyota/Subaru which is why they haven't done it yet.

dogisbadob > steve_snj 03/09/2014 at 18:11

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Wrong :p

Sunroofs are awesome!

tf3cac > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:12

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R.W.D.

FromCanadaWithLove > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:13

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Swap out the Abarth 500 for the GTI. That's a better comparison.

Whatabouteggs > feather-throttle-not-hair 03/09/2014 at 18:14

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As the owner of a currently stock BRZ, oh my god yes they need more power. A little FWD car can't handle very much power, so it's an apples to oranges comparison. What a toyobaru gives you is the most fun 200hp can be, but getting cut off by minivans and 97 camrys daily tends to eventually sour the experience. These cars need about 300hp/250tq and some legitimate 235s or 245s.

jalop-ho > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:14

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Price. Price. Price.

$25K FR-S's/BRZ's are NO WHERE to be found. $22K Fiesta ST's and 500 Abarth's are everywhere to be found.

Plus, the whole thing about not shoving much more than 200hp through the front wheels of a tiny car makes your comparison completely null and void. Yes, these cars will be cross shopped, but, enthusiasts know putting more HP through the rear wheels of an FR-S/BRZ is much more feasible than is putting more HP through the front wheels of a Fiesta ST and 500 Abarth.

newton > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:15

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Between this and Demuro's article, I'm ready to write one about why the 86 twins have too much power.

Blunion05 drives a pink S2000 (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:16

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They got everything wrong with this car. They gave it backseats when it should not have had any in the beginning, it was watered down far too much from the concept, and lastly, there is a huge lack of torque, even though the car is light.

Casper > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:17

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People like to pick teams. I can't help but laugh when people trash talk something like the BRZ/FR-S, but then talk up something like the Fiesta ST. The BRZ/FR-S is faster, RWD, and as well or better equipped... but it's bad, because the ST is good. The Abarth is amazing because it's different... even though it ties the ST for slowest of the group, is the smallest, etc.

The reality is that the problem is one of perception. People hear arguments both ways and pick sides without having even driven the vehicles. They then argue illogically/stupidly on behalf of their choice without any real knowledge other than paper stats stretched to fit.

GrauGeist > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:19

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IMO, the reason that hp comes up with the BRZ, is because there really isn't anything else to complain about.

Abarth / Focus? Fail Wheel Drive, tippy econobox platform (Mini, too).

Miata? Impractical.

BRZ? Subaru has the basic chassis nailed with the boxer engine. The body is what it is (and it's a miracle of packaging). The MT is from Lexus, very good. The utility is excellent. Power is definitely adequate for the price. The price is very, very fair. The CG and MOI are world class. Styling looks about right.

So all that's left is to nag about power, which can always go higher.

If the BRZ had come out with 250, they'd bitch it wasn't 300. With 300 hp, there would be people bitching that it's not 350 or 400 hp. At some point, people complain that it's not slaying 500+ hp Corvettes and 911s at the strip and on the track. Stock. With a MSRP under $25k.

Just wear your damn mask... > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:19

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Why? Because people need an excuse not to buy it. It is the classic brown wagon argument; everyone cried and pisses and moans about the lack of sporty RWD coupes and swears up and down that they'd totally buy one if someone offered it. Toyota and Subaru do just that, calling the bluff of most of these "enthusiasts", who either don't have the money or when push comes to shove, aren't in the market for such a car, and the story becomes, "I'd totally buy one, but they don't have enough power."

tl;dr, This is the real reason why we can't have nice things like wagons.

Seitz > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:19

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I will take an 8,000rpm redline and no torque over 250lbs-ft of torque at 5,000rpm any day.

Doctor-G-and-the-wagen > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:19

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So you're saying the problem with the Toyobaru is that it needs to simply look slower? Maybe Volvo or Buick should have designed it.

= I C E D R E E = > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:20

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for one, The Price\Power Ratio doesn't add up , here in Saudi Arabia you can get a base Dodge Charger V6 or a Challenger (to me its either an SRT or bust) for same price as a base model Toyota 86 (apparently, only the Highest trim is called GT86) .

Unlike the Abarth & the Fesita ST ... The Charger is RWD , 292Hp & 260 ib-ft V6 (That's 92Hp & 109 ib-ft more than the Toyota Triplets) ... Granted the Charger is an 8-Speed , but it still RWD, More Powerful, More Practical, Not as Cramped as the 86 & its just as cheap ... That's a sacrifice I'm willing to take.

GrauGeist > feather-throttle-not-hair 03/09/2014 at 18:20

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The BRZ chassis is based on the Impreza chassis, which underlies the WRX STi. It absolutely can handle 300+ hp without breaking a sweat.

Struts MacPherson > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:22

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"The Abarth and Fiesta ST are built on economy car platforms."

This is exactly why the Toybaru is underpowered, because it isn't a gussied up economy car. It's a purpose built sports car... THAT NEEDS MOAR POWER!

KingKai > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:24

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It isn't the HP. The FR-S has a TINY engine. Go look at the torque band.

Charles Spratlin > Casper 03/09/2014 at 18:25

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Its because Toyota deliberately neutered the twins, whereas the ST is pretty much as good as that car can get.

the Twins arent faster; the ST is lighter, has the same HP, and packs a fuckton more torque (simple numbers dude, easy to look up.)

Its RWD, bonus to Toyota for that.... till they cut the balls off.

Equipment; this i truly don't know about. but given the 5 grand premium of the Toyota, and its general lack of options i would expect nothing less.

In the end, the ST is going to be a better car until Toyota gives the FRS what it needs, more power and proper sports car tires.

ethanheisler > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:25

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I've never driven either but unless you just want to have a new car why would you not just buy a nice S2000? If were talking numbers they're not even in the same ballpark.

GrauGeist > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 18:26

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That's easy - Subaru doesn't need a higher-power BRZ. Their sales are up over last year. All is good.

You want more power? The WRX is here.

Need over 300 hp? Fine, here's the WRX STi .

It's Scion that could use it. Along with the bench racers. But as Subaru is doing just fine, eh, no hurry. But if Toyota bankrolls the supercharger development and tooling, I'm sure Subaru will trade out a few hot-selling Forester slots at Gunma.

turbo-prius > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:26

0

Because they keep getting spanked by everything else on the road.

BryanKendall > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:27

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Probably because it only has 150lbft of torque and that's not available until mid-high in the rev range. It needs more torque, not necessarily power IMO.

CleverBS > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 18:28

1

You and me, we'd get along.

I put my money where my mouth is and bought a Golf R (after cross shopping with a Focus ST and GTI), but if I was shopping right now, a Fiesta ST would be considered as well. And when my friends ask me what car to buy, the first thing I tell them all is a Fiesta ST... especially if they start talking about the FR-S/BRZ (it also helps that FWD is better in the winter here in Wisconsin).

And man, I've said the stuff about internet people from car forums not actually putting their money where their mouth is too many times. (My personal favorite is the people who complain about BMW "losing their way", yet none of them would ever buy a BMW newer than 8 years old.)

Klaus Schmoll > Gatsby's Ghost 03/09/2014 at 18:28

2

Are you sure??? I was pretty confident that all manufacturers measure their hp figures at the crank not the wheel. In the olden days there was a difference between SAE hp (US) and DIN hp (Europe). SAE hp figure were measured with a naked angine without water and oil pumps and alternators so the numbers were higher, DIN hp were measured with these in place as they are necessary to actually run the engine in the real world. But wheel hp? The Ford would have somewhat around 230-240 hp when measured at the crank. I can't see why Ford would throw away such a marketing advantage.

Brosenkranz > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:29

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I'm one of few who think the FRS doesn't need more power. It fucking drifts, people. That's badass. The Fiesta doesn't drift.

I'm not sure why the want more power either. Last time I drove one it merged onto the highway just fine. Do they want to drag race people? Do they want to floor it down the highway and go really fast? They'll look at me like a maniac for drifting it on my way to work, yet I'm not the one asking for more power that you can't use unless you're doing something equally dumb.

GrauGeist > Victorious Secret 03/09/2014 at 18:31

5

Actually, Subaru did. This is the only mid-engined boxer-engined sports coupe you can get under $ 25k. Actually, it's the only one you can get under $ 50k (Porsche Boxster / Cayman are the next cheapest alternatives).

The BRZ is objectively faster than the Miata, which is the only car in the category with similar handling focus.

In the upgunned economy car category, Subaru has the WRX, with the giant-slaying STi in the background.

Casper > Charles Spratlin 03/09/2014 at 18:31

2

It is faster. A BRZ/FR-S is about 1-2 tenths quicker in the quarter and several tenths quicker to 60. Don't cite bad information. I have both cars compared in real life as well as articles supporting all over the internet should you choose to do the research. Even on crappy tires, the 14.9 quarter and 6.4 0-60 is the best of these cars, all of which I have driven, some I drive fairly often.

So your entire argument revolves around them leaving headroom for tuning and performance enhancement after the fact? So you hate pretty much every great car ever made ranging from the 60's muscle cars to the Japanese cars of the early and mid 90's, through today?

GrauGeist > Seitz 03/09/2014 at 18:33

2

What are you running? A detuned crotch rocket?

highmodulus > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:34

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I own one. It needs more power , as it is well down on torque. Makes passing on country road a slingshot affair,as the car lacks the punch.

ReaperChief > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:34

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I would ask you to compare the weight of the cars, the torque and also consider the rpm for max HP..

TommyK154 > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:35

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My main problem with the BRZ/FRS is the interior quality. I wish it made you feel more special when you sit in it

GrauGeist > Doctor-G-and-the-wagen 03/09/2014 at 18:35

3

You mean like this Buick?

Or maybe this one?

Yeah, Buicks are so slow and boring to look at...

flabberboozled > GrauGeist 03/09/2014 at 18:36

1

Citation needed.

Benjinator12 > GrauGeist 03/09/2014 at 18:36

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Umm... no.

Pretty sure it's not.

Haze > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:36

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I would guess that it is the same reason people used to say that about the Mazda RX 8. The car was plenty fast enough, and even though it had a disparity between torque and HP, it was still able t0 go up a hill without stalling.

It is an error to think that a sports car is supposed to be the fastest car in the world. It isn't. All sports cars are engineered to quick for what they are, which means between size, body type, number of seats, that sort of thing. What they are engineered to be is balanced between their various attributes. A good sports car stops as hard as it accelerates, and turns as well as it goes. It delivers a sense of connection to the road through balanced engineering.

The problem with the RX 8 and I suspect with the Toyobaru is that they both deliver better handling and braking than they deliver acceleration. One can push the car through a turn harder than you can feel it moving off the line. Personally, I consider this to be a better problem than the car that flies off the line then sends you straight off a cliff at the sign of the first turn, and in those cars most people say that they lack handling because it isn't matched to the other performance aspects of the car. That's how I see it.

Miata. Cos HP is cheating. > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:38

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It's not ok because of mind numbingly boring Internet commentators that tirelessly magazine race cars that they have no real intention of actually buying.

TheCroatianGuy > WhatDaFunk 03/09/2014 at 18:38

3

Umm because FWD cars start acting shitty with bunch more horses despite all the witchcraft thrown at front axle, and RWD twins actually can handle more, and are more fun with some additional horses? I don't know how you missed the obvious.

GrauGeist > Goofnik 03/09/2014 at 18:38

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Well put.

Tho I would note that the cornering limits of a BMW 5-series with the sport suspension are very, very high. For how big of a sedan it is, you can pull some really tremendous cornering in one before the tires start to chirp.